Sunday, October 08, 2006

COMICS - What's up with Kingpin?

I mentioned to Doug (one of'em, anyway) that I posted the following and he thought I meant on the blog. Since I've been meaning to do some more comics (and movie)-related posts, I thought I'd copy and paste it from the message board to here:
"I saw a couple of older comics, recently, that featured [the Kingpin] and I wondered what his current status was and if anything cool was happening/had happened, involving him.

And, although I should just go look at my ESSENTIAL OHotMU volumes, I'm wondering about his "powers" and abilities.

Mostly, I'm thinking of a fight I saw between the Kingpin and the Red Skull. At the time the 'Skull was sporting a body that was actually a clone of Steve Rogers, so he had Captain America's strength and endurance, along with his own, apparently impressive martial arts prowess.

In that fight, the Kingpin's pressure points were so heavily padded and his strength was incredible that the Skull was catching all sorts of hell.


Now, I prefer "my Kingpin" to be something less than super-powered, but this made for an incredibly impressive fight. I'd even call it a "new classic."

I wondered if there was anything like that that'd happened with the Kingpin, more recently.


The last time I saw him was at the end of Millar's Spider-Man hc.



So, yeah. This is basically an all things Kinpin thread, I guess."



Your thoughts?

9 comments:

Luke Cage said...

Hmm, this fight got past me West. I never even knew that they existed in the same time continuum since the Red Skull served during the Axis era and Kingpin is more modern. I would have liked seeing that fight though.

But as far as I know, right now, The Kingpin has no superhuman powers. He's as strong as he's ever been in a natural way, and I'm still surprised that he can fight Spidey to a stand still. Remarkable considering that KP doesn't sport any powers and we all know about Spidey's arachnid-enhanced abilities.

Like yourself man, I prefer Kingpin more as he is. I'm not sure how I would like him superpowered. Even though the fight with Red Skull sounds more like a "What If?" issue than one steeped in regular continuity. I remember when Spidey went cosmic. He looked cool, but he lacked the brain power to harness and keep his mighty new powers in check.. Some comicbook characters are good as they are...

West said...

re: "Hmm, this fight got past me West. I never even knew that they existed in the same time continuum since the Red Skull served during the Axis era and Kingpin is more modern. I would have liked seeing that fight though. "

The fight took place in the mid-nineties.

The Red Skull was believed to be dead, but a character named Arnim Zola somehow preserved the Skull's mind until the then-present. He also created a clone of Steve Rogers, Captain America, then placed the Skull's consciousness within it.

That body possessed the super-soldier serum, so it was as strong and agile as a human being can be - like Captain America.

So, that's how the skull was able to fight someone from a more recent era.

re: "But as far as I know, right now, The Kingpin has no superhuman powers. He's as strong as he's ever been in a natural way, and I'm still surprised that he can fight Spidey to a stand still. Remarkable considering that KP doesn't sport any powers and we all know about Spidey's arachnid-enhanced abilities. "

Bingo.

That's what's kinda bugged me about the Kingpin. He's all but impervious to pressure-point attacks, due to the padding all over his body - padding that's often muscle, but is often mistaken for fat.

He also, like you say, fights super-powered characters to a standstill. That doesn't make sense.

How can a regular human-being out-power (which I should distinguish from simply out-fighting someone) a guy who can bench-press a Buick?!

re: "Like yourself man, I prefer Kingpin more as he is. I'm not sure how I would like him superpowered. Even though the fight with Red Skull sounds more like a "What If?" issue than one steeped in regular continuity. I remember when Spidey went cosmic. He looked cool, but he lacked the brain power to harness and keep his mighty new powers in check.. Some comicbook characters are good as they are..."

I loved the cosmic-powered Spidey, but I agree that it was a novelty thing that couldn't/shouldn't last forever.

That fight with the Kingpin was so great, in my opinion, that it'd be worth reprinting.

It took place in a Captain America issue, by the way.

James Meeley said...

He also, like you say, fights super-powered characters to a standstill. That doesn't make sense.

How can a regular human-being out-power (which I should distinguish from simply out-fighting someone) a guy who can bench-press a Buick?!


I guess you have to put that up to suspension of disbelief.

Although, if you need SOMETHING to tell yourself to make it make sense, don't forget, these super-powered guys are usually heroes. They are used to holding back and not cutting loose on "mere mortals". They know that, while stronger than most, KP is just a "normal human". I'm sure Spider-Man doesn't go all out on some bank robbers, for the same reason he holds back when fighting KP... he's just a normal human.

And yes, Spidey should know KP isn't going to be the pushover most normal humans are for him, but when you have conditioned yourself to react a certain way, such as when you battle people you know aren't super-powered, that can be a very hard habit to break (and one a guy like KP would take full advantage of).

Hope that makes some sense for you. ;)

West said...

Heh.

I appreciate it, James, but some things defy the suspension of disbelief.

For instance, when Spidey's in a bear-hug, having the life squeezed from him, self-preservation ought to provide enough motivation for him to use his abilities to break free.

Suspension of anything, including disbelief, requires a certain amount of effort to counteract the natural state of things. Having a "regular" guy out-power a "super" guy without sufficient explanation doesn't sound like the requisite amount of effort... not for me, anyway.

As I say, I dig the character, but creators shouldn't allow such things to consistently pull the reader out of the story. If they do, that's on the creator, not the reader.

James Meeley said...

I appreciate it, James, but some things defy the suspension of disbelief.

For instance, when Spidey's in a bear-hug, having the life squeezed from him, self-preservation ought to provide enough motivation for him to use his abilities to break free.


Yeah, but we also know that the Kingpin is a trained fighter. It's not just his size and brute strength that make him so imposing, he his fighting technique. He knows how to fight. Spidey, while certainly more powerful than any man can be, really doesn't. He relies on his extra-abilities to give him the upper hand. And anyone who's had any type of fight training can tell you, technique can out perform brute strength anytime. In fact, if you are trained enough, you can use another strength against them and I somehow doubt that KP would not have wanted to learn such skills.

Suspension of anything, including disbelief, requires a certain amount of effort to counteract the natural state of things. Having a "regular" guy out-power a "super" guy without sufficient explanation doesn't sound like the requisite amount of effort... not for me, anyway.

I don't disagree, I just think we've been given the "sufficient explanations" you seem to need.

Spider-Man (and pretty much most any super-powered hero who can be called a hero) is known for holding back their power, when facing a normal human. And mere power alone can be overcome if you have the technique and training to us it against them (which Kingpin does).

KP has been shown in the past to train in the "manly arts" and is more than willing to use the heroes own sense of fairness and compassion (i.e. holding back) against them. Seem we have all the explanations we need for why KP could give a good fight to Spidey, IMO. ;)

West said...

I gave an example of Kingpin putting Spidey in a bear-hug and Spidey being unable to get out of it.

Fighting technique, which I thought I already covered, does not explain why Spidey would be over-powered by this example of brute force.

There are other such examples, so again, I'm not just talking about fighting techniques.

A bear hug may be a technique, if you really want to go there, but it's mostly about strength.

Anyway, I expect we'll continue to disagree on this, so I'll leave it there and thank you for the convo.

West said...

From the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (ESSENTIAL):

"Strength level: The Kingpin possesses the normal human strength of a man of his age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. The Kingpin is virtually as strong as it is possible for a man of his age, height, and weight to be without having superhuman powers. His great bulk does not consist of fat but of muscles that have been developed to enormous size, as in a sumo wrestler. The Kingpin can lift (press) approximately 650 pounds."

He shouldn't be able to out-power Spidey.

James Meeley said...

He shouldn't be able to out-power Spidey.

Nice "leaving it there, huh West? ;) I kid, i kid.... :)

Seriously, I guess when you come rightdown to it, it doesn't make logical sense. But then, you have to remeber, this is comics (and specifically, superheor comics). Adhering to a strict sense of logic is not what they are known for.

We've already brought up the points of Kingpin being trained in fighting, while Spidey relies on his powers alone. We've talked about Spidey holding back, because he's a hero and wouldn't want to seriously injure or kill a normal human (even Kingpin). I guess the only other angle i can give you is simply the fear factor.

Spidey's wisecracks, as has been noted over the years, have always been to cover up his fear while engaging in life-or-death battles. Such fear could lessen your abilities, as sort of a mental block, when you find yourself in such situations. In short, Kingpin's menacing size and power (even though only human) can psyche out an opponent of greater power, because they buy into the hype of Kingpin's own sense of power and undefeatability. Add this to the points already discussed and i think it makes seeing Spidey struggle in a fight with Kingpin make as much sense as anything is a superhero comic can be expected to.

If you don't agree, well, that's cool. It your right and choice. But then, it wouldn't make much sense to me why you bother with superhero comics at all. To each his own, though.

Thanks for the great debate, West! :)

West said...

re: "Nice "leaving it there, huh West? ;) I kid, i kid.... :)"

Whoops. Ya got me.

I was discussing this with a friend, elsewhere, and thought I'd just share that information with others.

:-)

re: "Seriously, I guess when you come rightdown to it, it doesn't make logical sense. But then, you have to remeber, this is comics (and specifically, superheor comics). Adhering to a strict sense of logic is not what they are known for."

I don't need a strict sense of logic as much as I need consistency. That's something of a stickler, for me.

Base-line human, human channeling his/her "chi," super-powered human, etc.

I just want the labels to be applied logically & consistently. The latter should be a bit less challenging, in a sci-fi universe, than the former.

re: "We've already brought up the points of Kingpin being trained in fighting, while Spidey relies on his powers alone. We've talked about Spidey holding back, because he's a hero and wouldn't want to seriously injure or kill a normal human (even Kingpin). I guess the only other angle i can give you is simply the fear factor.

Spidey's wisecracks, as has been noted over the years, have always been to cover up his fear while engaging in life-or-death battles. Such fear could lessen your abilities, as sort of a mental block, when you find yourself in such situations. In short, Kingpin's menacing size and power (even though only human) can psyche out an opponent of greater power, because they buy into the hype of Kingpin's own sense of power and undefeatability. Add this to the points already discussed and i think it makes seeing Spidey struggle in a fight with Kingpin make as much sense as anything is a superhero comic can be expected to.

If you don't agree, well, that's cool. It your right and choice. But then, it wouldn't make much sense to me why you bother with superhero comics at all. To each his own, though."


I can immerse myself in another world, as long as I understand the rules well enough to get around... and as long as the rules remain clear and consistent.

Consistency can be stretched to include the changing of the rules, so long as that's acknowledged as such.

re: "Thanks for the great debate, West! :)"

Ditto, my good man.